Mike Phelan interview: ‘Manchester United’s decision-making? It’s quite confusing’

Mike Phelan is talking to a group of football directors from clubs in the United States.

“I was a player, a coach, and an assistant manager at Manchester United,” he says. “The only hat-trick I got, to be fair. And when I started out coaching, the first thing the manager, Sir Alex Ferguson, said when he offered me a job came after I asked a stupid question.

“I said, ‘How do you want me to coach?’ He went, ‘Mick, you’re the coach, I’m the manager. You coach. I’ll manage.’ Simple as that. What he gave me was ownership.”

Few figures have straddled United’s modern history like Phelan. He was there as a player when they returned to the top of the English game in the early 1990s, and then won six Premier League titles, a Champions League, an FA Cup and three League Cups as part of Ferguson’s coaching staff. Yet he also knows their struggles of filling the post-Ferguson void during the past decade-plus, from his time as Ole Gunnar Solskjaer’s No 2.

He retreated from football’s coalface in summer 2022, but was quickly back involved again as a United ambassador, attending occasional European away matches and speaking to sponsors.

“(It was) Just turning up, eating plenty, drinking plenty, then watching the game, with a Q&A… I thought, ‘There’s a deeper aspect to it’,” he recalls. “What I did say is, ‘Put me in front of people to talk about culture and team building, that type of thing’.”

His contract, which included a certain number of working days, ended in January and talks on a new deal have cooled. “It was left in nowhere land, so you drift away from it,” says Phelan, now 62. “I’d still represent them if they want me to. But I think they’re moving away from ambassadors.”

He laughs heartily: “The biggest one’s gone now, so what’s the chance for the rest of us!”

Phelan is, of course, talking about Ferguson himself, whose legacy ripples through the course of an hour-long conversation with The Athletic which also covers:

• The “confusing” calls around Erik ten Hag and Ruben Amorim
• Ruud van Nistelrooy’s future, having coached him as a United player
• The “frustrations” of United’s “collaboration” ethos in recent years
• The “weirdness” of Ralf Rangnick phoning his assistant during games while in interim charge
• The moment it fell apart for Solskjaer, a fan favourite from his playing days, as the manager
• His reflections on Cristiano Ronaldo’s return — and why Jude Bellingham was ready for United’s first team aged 16.

Phelan is speaking at the Holiday Inn hotel in Manchester, having given a lecture to a dozen clients who have flown across the Atlantic for an event organised by Inspire Sports, part of the group responsible for much of the travel and logistics for both United and neighbours Manchester City.

He is involved through his coach education consultancy, Mike Phelan Coaching, which enlists his former United colleagues Paul McGuinness, Chris Casper and David Horrocks. It has brought Phelan back to where he began in coaching, with classes for kids as well as executives. “I enjoy grassroots, seeing people develop their skills,” he says.

This summer, he toured his seminars across the United States, but he still monitors developments at United, most recently new co-owner Sir Jim Ratcliffe’s decision to end Ferguson’s ambassadorial contract. “He can go to any game he wants throughout the country,” reasons Phelan of his former mentor. “I think he’s opened his mind up to a lot of other things, so he doesn’t have to be tied.

“He is always there for advice or even to tell you exactly how it is. That’s the beauty of the man. He doesn’t blow smoke up your backside. He should be treasured, but it’s a completely changed environment (at United) now. The proof of the pudding will come further down the line, as to whether they can achieve what they are setting out to do, but there seems to be a lot going on there.

“They’ve got rid of a lot of people — some good people. It needs streamlining in the right areas but has it still got that unity it had when it was successful? There is more exposure now to open up those cracks.”

The highest profile job-cut involved Ten Hag, sacked last week with United 14th in the 20-team Premier League and 21st in the Europa League’s 36-club league-phase table.

“The decision-making has probably left a lot to be desired,” says Phelan. “It’s a strange one that they go so far, look for new managers, then win the FA Cup (last season), back him to the hilt, bring in new staff, spend a lot on players, then change their minds. It’s quite confusing.”

United’s hierarchy were quick to appoint a replacement in Sporting Lisbon’s Amorim, but he will not take charge of a game until November 24 — another aspect Phelan has not “quite got my head around yet”.

And that is not his only concern. “He (Amorim) likes the 3-4-3, which is great if you can get it going,” he adds. “But it all depends on what he has got at his disposal.

“Everything leading up to it with Amorim and Ten Hag seems like the same talk. Same qualifications, Sporting being one, Ajax the other. Amorim is certainly not an unknown, he’s got experience in Europe, but it seems to be the same sort of remit. You wonder whether Manchester United need a seriously experienced manager.”

Phelan can remember the night Amorim played at Old Trafford in October 2012, as Portuguese side Braga took a two-goal lead against Ferguson’s United within 20 minutes only to lose 3-2 in a Champions League group-stage game.

Some in the industry thought Van Nistelrooy another to do great things in the United shirt, would be given the role of interim manager until the end of the season following Ten Hag’s departure, but Phelan, speaking from his own experience, disagrees.

“A permanent manager is definitely what Manchester United needs,” he insists. “The interesting one is whether Ruud will still be there or not (on the staff).”

Amorim would like to bring with him three first-team coaches, a goalkeeping coach, and a sports scientist. “Normally when you’re bringing in so many, I don’t see how there’s space for anybody who’s already there,” he adds. “But Ruud is putting himself in the shop window. He’s said all the right things. I just can’t see how he wants to be an assistant to an assistant to an assistant.”

Phelan was first-team coach when Van Nistelrooy forged a cult hero status as a United striker. “He was very, very single-minded,” he remembers. “But he never gave me the impression that coaching was for him. Then again, that’s good, because you just want their attention on what they’re supposed to do as a player.”

Phelan is a son of Lancashire, to the north of Manchester — born in Nelson, near Burnley, the club where he was schooled as a player, he has spent most of his football career in the county.

After post-retirement coaching spells at Norwich City, Blackpool and Stockport County, he admits being offered the chance to become Ferguson’s assistant at United in 2008 was a ‘pinch me’ moment.

“Sometimes, you feel as though you are a bit of a fraud,” Phelan says. “But you knew you were there because the manager wanted you. You’re dealing with good players, controversial players, chaotic players. I have a strength being an assistant, trying to keep a level head on things when it’s all kicking off. But my role was also to challenge him (Ferguson). I couldn’t just sit on the fence.”

After leaving when Ferguson retired in summer 2013, Phelan returned with Solskjaer five and a half years later. “The second time was different because the club had gone from this small group of people — chief executive, manager, owner, coach — to departmentalisation.

“I understand collaboration, but somebody has to make a decision. And Sir Alex was a decision-maker. With collaboration, it floats in the ether: ‘We’ve discussed it, we’ll sit round, discuss it again, go away, come back and discuss again.’ It was a completely different environment to work in.”

Phelan appreciated Sir Alex Ferguson’s authority (Alex Livesey/Getty Images)

Phelan could be blunt when in meetings on recruitment or logistics. “We all get a bit chirpier,” he admits. “The first time round, my opinion was valued, but the second time round, I was really upfront. And I’m not sure that was altogether what the environment wanted.

“It was really frustrating, because when you’ve got a guy who makes decisions, right or wrong, you go with it and you adapt. When you don’t make decisions, you don’t know what the ultimate aim is. That mentality of, ‘We win the league or the Champions League’ to ‘Let’s finish in the top four’ — that’s a completely different scenario to what I’d had. It’s Man United, you expect it to be a given.”

Phelan also had a hard time understanding Rangnick’s appointment as interim manager following Solskjaer’s dismissal in November 2021. “It never felt right. There is nothing interim about being Man United manager — you are the man. It was another change in that world of madness at times.”

Rangnick was unable to bring in his first-choice team of coaches, due to the temporary nature of his role and work-permit issues. Instead, as The Athletic revealed, he took soundings from close associate Lars Kornetka, who had stayed on at Russian club Lokomotiv Moscow but would watch United’s matches from abroad.

“It’s difficult to understand when the game is going on and you’re there, but the input is coming from somebody on the end of a phone in another part of the world,” Phelan says. “It was weird. I just thought, ‘Why? The game is there, watch it.’ I don’t need somebody in wherever to tell me his thoughts when he isn’t even relevant to the club right now.

Some of Rangnick’s methods left Phelan perplexed (Paul Ellis/AFP via Getty Images)

“It worked for Ralf. I respect that. It just wasn’t in my understanding of the game. But maybe it’s how the game is going. I’m still getting my head around 30 staff with laptops every game – analysing what? You’ve got 10 minutes to go in a match, you’re losing, then you’re having a discussion for five minutes and the moment’s gone. I used to think, ‘Guys, the game’s nearly finished’.”

Phelan accepts he was not beyond reproach back in the day. He transports himself back to the Old Trafford touchline, to tell a story about United’s Brazilian twin brothers Rafael and Fabio da Silva.

“I’m on the touchline shouting, ‘Rafa, get forward, run.’ I’m on it for about a minute, and then I go back to the dugout and the people go, ‘It’s Fabio.’ I thought, ‘No wonder he wasn’t doing anything!’”

The beginning of the end for Phelan at United came at Vicarage Road, where a 4-1 loss against Watford pushed Solskjaer to the brink. “We collapsed (United went 2-0 down, got one back, then had Harry Maguire sent off and conceded two more goals late on),” he says. “Afterwards, there was a feeling from Ole that something was not quite right and it developed into, ‘That’s me done.’

“It was a shame. Ole was really straight, a good thinker. He was underestimated for that because he was a nice guy, but he knew the game and how to coach. And he was pretty open to letting (assistants) Michael (Carrick) and Kieran (McKenna) deliver on the training ground. He put a lot of belief in them.”

United finished third and then second in Solskjaer’s two full Premier League seasons as the manager, also reaching the 2020-21 Europa League final, where they were beaten on penalties by current Aston Villa manager Unai Emery’s Villarreal. Phelan thinks the Norwegian could have won a trophy with full support in the transfer market.

“I thought he put together a real belief in what being a Man United player is all about,” he says. “But probably some of the players lost a bit of focus. Is that down to the manager or them? I haven’t got the answers. I just know there’s a disappointment it could have been better.

“Ole still has a lot to offer, he’s looking for an opportunity. He’s a forward-thinking guy who just needs the right people around him.”

Phelan believes Solskjaer is not finished in football (Michael Regan/Getty Images)

Since being trusted by Solskjaer to coach United’s players, Carrick and McKenna have gone on to forge managerial careers of their own. McKenna is a Premier League boss today after winning back-to-back promotions with Ipswich, and was spoken to by United as a potential successor to Ten Hag before last season’s FA Cup final. Meanwhile Middlesbrough, under Carrick, are close to the Championship play-off places this season.

“Kieran’s very studious, quite intense to the detail, and probably what you could say a modern manager-coach,” Phelan says. “Michael is definitely coach-based. He knows how he wants the game to be played and he’s probably picking up managerial stuff as he goes along.

“He has a great understanding of the game. I would think he has the respect of the players for what he’s achieved. He’s got a different manner about him than Kieran, but they worked really well together.”

Many people point to the resigning of Cristiano Ronaldo in summer 2021 at age 36 as upsetting United’s trajectory under Solskjaer. But Phelan speaks warmly of a player he first met as an 18-year-old.

“When Ronaldo returned, the buzz was unreal — supporters, players. What he brought back with him was a different playing style. Ronaldo is a goalscorer. He was driven by his outstanding ability to change a game. Everything was great. And then things change from the point of view of his ambition.

“From the first time (Ronaldo was at United), when I was a coach, I just fine-tuned certain things. I tried to appeal to his strong mentality — ‘These moments are yours’. I applied that the second time around. You didn’t coach Cristiano to be a better player. All I was doing was reinforcing his belief that special players find a way.

“I was rubbing his ego a little bit. But he delivered. He was older, wiser and set high standards — sometimes standards others couldn’t keep to.

“We can all look back in hindsight, and I think Ole has commented on it, how that dynamic might have changed. But if you wanted someone to produce something, he did it. I honestly never thought Cristiano stepped over boundaries.

“I still think Man United fans want to see something they can’t do; (something to) get their bums off seats.”

Cristiano Ronaldo’s second spell at Manchester United ended unhappily (James Gill/Getty Images)

One player Phelan thought capable of that sort of quality, who United were unable to sign, was Jude Bellingham. He watched him play for Birmingham City at St Andrew’s against West Bromwich Albion in December 2019, intrigued by reports of a spectacular young talent who was taking the Championship by storm.

“I didn’t talk to the club about it,” says Phelan. “I sat in the directors’ box and watched this kid. In the one game, he played four positions — and was man of the match in every position. That’s a 16-year-old. I thought, ‘He’s going to go all the way.’ I went in the next day and told the manager, the coaches. The only person I could relate him to was Bryan Robson. Having played with Bryan, I thought those qualities were there in abundance. If you want to build a team, there’s a player to do it around.

“We tried to put a case together to get him, and we sold it the best way we could. But really, in his head, it was a family decision. Ultimately, he wanted a different experience. But from my point of view, I was more than confident this player, at 16, would be playing in Man United’s first team right at that moment. There was no way I thought he was a squad player.”

They had more success recruiting Bruno Fernandes, who joined from Sporting Lisbon in the 2019-20 winter window, after Solskjaer and Phelan took a scouting trip to the Portuguese capital.

“Bruno did everything that day,” Phelan said. “No real specific position, but he was everywhere, quite undisciplined. It worked in the environment he was in. What he had was vision, the ability to control the ball, to take a risk and to create something.

“The opportunity came along and we said, ‘He will be a definite improvement on what we’ve got.’ So we went all-in to get him and he didn’t disappoint. Very enthusiastic, knowledgeable about the game. Pretty effective around the place, quite controlling. But he delivered. And he was the right player at the right time for us. A good person.

Bruno Fernandes’ responsibility came to weigh heavy on him, according to Phelan (Carl Recine/Getty Images)

“Ultimately, what we were trying to do was to build on top of that as well. But he became the focal point of everything, and that was probably down to the group of players we had. Then he became captain. That was a decision other people made for whatever reasons, and he probably levelled out a little bit. He probably tried to affect everybody and forgot about himself.

“They’ve got to find a way of getting the best out of Bruno. I think they’re still juggling with that. Is he part of the answer or is he part of the problem? I don’t know. It’s about trying to make him a little bit more aware of the job at times.”

Phelan has only been back to Old Trafford once since stepping away, when he watched United beat FC Copenhagen 1-0 in last season’s Champions League group stage, while hosting U.S. clients. He met Henrik Larsson, who he’d coached at United in 2007. Larsson’s son, Jordan, missed a penalty for the Danes in added time.

He also gets invited to City matches on Champions League nights — “I do enjoy that level” — but admits finding England’s top flight “a little bit samey”.

“You can more or less look at the game in 15 minutes and know mostly what’s going to pan out on playing styles,” Phelan says. “Europe is the next level: high quality, unpredictable.”

His enduring joy for football is clear.

“I’m no longer in the professional game,” Phelan says, “but I look back and think, ‘Wow, what a ride that was’.”

(Top photo: Laurie Whitwell/The Athletic)